A couple of days ago I was reading an excellent article written by J.A. Matteson over at Faith Defenders, addressing the subject of the eternal security of the elect of God. This is something that holds deep meaning for me, just as with many others, for it is the very thing that has plagued my mind over the years. I don’t think I was alone in the charismatic churches I belonged to, where on one hand I would boldly proclaim my salvation in Christ as most definite, and underneath the surface, that boldness would be nothing more than a façade. Since the Lord has graciously led me to a more informed understanding of reformed doctrine, and the reality of His providence over my life and all that is in it, I truly have found a Rock on which to stand, both in public and in the most darkest hours.
In the comment thread that followed the post, I ended up making a reply to a lady who remarked strongly against the idea of our eternal security, at least from the reformed perspective, and instead laid the success of our salvation upon the believers own faithfulness. To someone such as myself, who has been brought out of a place of fear of losing my salvation, because I know I am too weak to hold on, this challenge is extremely offensive to me. What is more, and this is my own personal opinion only, I believe is offensive to God also.
I would just like to paint a little picture to explain my own understanding, and if wrong about this, please someone put me right, as this has so far been crucial to my understanding:
If a heavy stainless steel chain was stretched between two immovable rocks, and the links of that chain were solid throughout it’s length, then it would be virtually immovable too. However if one link of that chain was weakened anywhere throughout the length, the whole set up could not be stronger than the weakest link. In effect, it would mean nothing how strong the rocks the chain was connected to, but simply how weak was the weakest link of the chain.
So it is with our faith in Christ for salvation. On the heavenly side we have the Father choosing us, and calling us to be with Him. And on the earthly side, we have the very sacrifice of Christ crucified and risen again, that makes that journey possible. These would be like the two immovable rocks in the illustration. However if there was any reliance at all upon my own faithfulness to hold on till the end, I become the weakest link in the chain, and the strength of both Father and Son is nullified!
The crux of the matter then is, how do I hold on? After all, if I don’t, then it’s true I am lost without any doubt whatsoever.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
God does not make guarantees without being able to back them up, and most certainly does not leave the authenticity of His guarantee at the mercy of us, in any way, shape or form!
What I have come to realise is that, whilst it’s utterly ridiculous to suggest that if I don’t hold on until the end, I will be saved anyway. It is not I but the Holy Spirit who holds on, and so it remains solely by the hand of the Lord, and not I, that I am saved for eternity. I know that beyond doubt, from before I even knew God existed, to the most distant points in eternity, God has placed His hand upon my life to save me from eternal destruction. Why? I have absolutely no idea, other than His love knows no bounds. But the truth of this makes an everlasting fount of thanksgiving bubble up from my innermost being, and leaves me with no room to boast in my own strength, my own wisdom, or my own faithfulness whatsoever.
So finally I would like to leave you with a different illustration to emphasize my point:
Take something as flimsy as a loaf of bread, and then bury a solid stainless steel link in the very centre of it. Then attach a solid stainless steel chain to each side of the link, as with the illustration previously. If we looked upon this set up we would see two rocks either side, with a chain attached to each, and all being supported by a loaf of bread! In truth, would this have anything to do with the strength of the loaf of bread, or the stainless steel link buried at the heart of it?
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This eternal Security has plagued me for years,as you well quoted “In Him you also trusted,when you heard the word,so what happens if you come to apoint where you stop trusting,and start trusting something else.Look around you see what is happening with this apostacy,why did Jesus warn us not to be decieved,if we could never lose our salvation.why do we even have to worry about falling into appostacy.Why did Jesus warn us ,see that you will not be decieved.Yes we are weak,and on our own we cannot make it to the land,but we have no excuse God is faithful and He will get you to safety,but you have a free will,which will always be yours,why do we still sin then? Its because we still have this flesh,we are still able to yield our wills,to sin or to the Lord.Thank God He knows our weaknessess and He provided us with the Holy Spirit so that He can convict us,so we can repent and go back to the relashionship we had before.We can grieve the Holy Spirit though by chosing to go our way,God is long suffering and I do not think that we lose salvation every minute we sin,but I do believe that if we harden our hearts and chose to go back to the enemy,God will finally harden your heart.Why does He say I will give them a great delusion.its not the devil who is giving it to them its the Lord.If while we are hanging on to the rope,which is not flimsy,God had made sure he has the right equipment.Do you think when there is a helicopter rescue,they use flimsy ropes?It can be that while you are being towed to land you suddenly lose confidence in that rope,and you see a trunk floating or a small rock or whatever,and you decide to leave the security of the rope to hang on to the trunk,which will only take you down with the current.I have seen many strong people,who even brought many people to the Lord,and now they are preaching that you can be saved even if you do not believe in Christ.So what happened with these people,do you think they are still saved?Why does it worry people anyway,it does not worry me.I know my Jesus so much I am never going to let Him go,and that is why I am constatly watching that noone cheats me of my prize.I check myself regularly that I am in the faith,and I go and check everything I hear or read,as a good Berean.I believe in eternal security,but with a condition,that I run the race till the end.In my country we have a saying the race is till you end the finishing line.You seem to forget we are being tested,and if we are saved on the first day we believed,why do we have to be tested over and over again,it makes no point.Why aren’t we taken home strait away.Many are called but few are chosen,I would advise you to keep holding on till the end,you are not working for it or doing anything that requires strenght,our strenght comes from above,you just keep focused on the Lord and I am sure one day we will meet in heaven ,my dear brother.
Ask here also, “Is there such a thing as “temporary eternal security?”
My understanding of Romans 7:14-25 is that Paul states that it is not his yielding his will to sin (indeed he wills not to sin v.19) that makes him still sin, but his flesh warring against his mind v.20. Would this then not also be true for all believers?
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=539 Sermons by Jacob Prasch regarding once saved always saved
indeed we do war against the flesh,because we now have a free will,we can opt to obey the flesh or to obey the spirit who is showing you you should not do this.But when you give in to the flesh,its not the Holy Spirit that made you fall,on the contrary its you who chose sin,you should continue to read,Paul said so shall we go on sinning then so that grace abounds,God forbid.Before we were born again,we had no free will,we were the children of satan,doing his will, now God restored our free wills,so that we can chose.Please listen to Jacobs sermons,the ones I posted and whatever you believe its up to you.I do not judge you,you are not mine to judge.When God calls us its like a marriage proposal,He asks to have a relasionship with us,we are part of the bride,it can be that at the begining the bride is so happy and very willing,she is very faithfull,then something happens and she sets her eyes on someone else,or she gets fed up and she starts to grow cold,and eventualy decide to leave.the groom even though he is faithful and gives his life for her,he cannot force her to stay.So that is how it is,if we are faithfull,and endure till the end,then we will finally reach our destination.I do not know how somebody on here accused me of being in the word of faith,they believe in once saved always saved,and they all think they are going to heaven.Please listen to Jacob,he is a scholar and explains scripture better than me,though I do not believe it because I heard him,I came to these conclusions on my knees because this plagued me for years,and then I heard him and it was my confirmation.
Joyce,
I realise this subject is a hot topic that is not going to disappear in an instant, and so if you have a desire to do so, I would request that you continue this discussion on our forum, which is far better equipped to do so. If this option is okay with you, just leave a reply to this comment, or email me at john@heartcry.me.uk requesting registration, and I will set up an account for you immediately.
The main reason for this is that due to the busy nature of this blog, old posts and comments etc., soon get pushed down into the archives, whereas on the forum, discussion will remain on the surface until it draws to its natural conclusion.
Also I would like to address your comments about Jacob Prasch, who I also do listen to, and in fact is a regular guest speaker at our church in Southampton. However the opinions I have formed regarding these matters, are very much through the Word of God first and foremost, rather than simply what others have written or preached.
Of course I do share you concerns, in that we cannot as encourage as eternally saved, the apostate who falsely proclaims Christ as Saviour, and yet remains rooted in the world. However we must encourage those who are born again of the Spirit, that He is able to complete the work that He has begun in their lives, without any reliance upon them in any way. It is about Him, not us.
Anyway, if you would like to continue to discuss this subject openly, the offer of forum membership is there.
God bless,
John.
no John I do not wish to debate this topic further,Jacob gives you scriptural step by step understanding of this,and he can do it much better than I.I do not think that you even listened to the lessons.And do not give me this you do not form opinions from others,this teaching is calvinistic and I was taught it too.If you read the bible for yourself you never come to the conclusion that once saved always saved.You have to be well versed in the greek,and in midrash to understand this.To say that I offend God by believing this,is ridiculous,He will complete what He started in your life,if you keep on allowing Him to.You all seem to think that acting upon God’s word is working.You are not working for your salvation but you are working it out Ph 2:12,there is agreat difference.Well as for the southampton church there are many there that believe like me,the best thing is that you do not encourage this doctrine since it is devisive,but we will know when we get there who was right.If anything we have the safest view here,you on the other hand think that the Holy Spirit is going to tie you down somewhere to do His bidding until He gets you were He wants you.No brother the Lord does not work like that,He restored our free will so that we be tested like Adam was tested,so that He can know what we are made of,and though He calls many very few will eventually be saved.As he said in Revelation,only those who endure to the end.
Joyce,
There is only one person who came into this conversation with all guns blazing, and it certainly was not anyone other than yourself. You attacked ferociously the message of encouragement that was shared, giving assurance to those who sincerely believe, that the Lord is able to complete what He has begun, and carry them through to eternal glory in Christ.
You are the one who has stated that this doctrine that relies solely upon Christ for all is delivering multitudes to hell. You are the one that has elevated man’s free will, and man’s faithfulness as the key factors in the overall success of salvation. And now you are the one who is suggesting that it is us who is promoting works righteousness, which could never be further from the truth.
I have made a fair and decent offer to you, and given you the opportunity to voice your concerns openly, that we may get to the bottom of this. However you have seemingly pre-judged us all according to your understanding what Jacob Prasch has happened to say. This is totally unfair on us and Jacob Prasch, because what you are doing is pitting your own opinion of two different ministries against one another, without even having the courage or willingness to enter into a fair discussion from your own stance, regardless of how that stance has come to be taken.
To prevent anyone drawing wrong conclusions I am going to be totally up front in saying that I am giving instruction for any further comments you make not to be displayed. I will not tolerate the people who are part of this ministry, or the hard work and dedication to the edification of the saints, being slandered as divisive by someone who I know nothing about, and who has no desire to do anything apart from attack.
In Christ,
John Dunning.
This comment is directed at all who have, or will, comment on this post including myself!
In our zeal to proclaim the truth let us not forget to humble ourselves before God and each other as brothers and sisters in Christ (Philippians 2). Let’s not let pride rise up, and ironically as we proclaim “truth” to each other, condemn us in sin.
All that we say should be to the glory of God.
God bless,
Andy
At my brother Andy’s request, and for the sake of peace, I have not carried out the action I stated previously regarding further comments from Joyce. However I will not participate any further in this thread.
God bless,
John.
Hi Joyce,
As requested in your last reply to myself I have now listened to Jacob Prasch’s sermons. These are the first sermons of his that I have listened to and also the first on this subject from an Arminian perspective. I think I have a better understanding of the Arminian position now.
It is good that there are teachers who are willing to attempt to properly exegete scripture with the purpose of more fully understanding the things that God has revealed to us through his word. I think that he made lots of salient points with which I can agree and a few maybe not.
I think one thing that he said that I understand differently is the issue of free will. It may just be semantics but I see it more as obedience than free will e.g. obeying God or not obeying God rather than having free will to do the will of God or the will of Satan.
I found what he said about all the different flavours of Arminianism and Calvinism interesting and it is easy to see how friction occurs because within each group there is such a wide range of beliefs. I think that the original meanings and understanding of what the terms Arminian and Calvinist mean have been lost. That’s why we have to start using terms like Classic and Hyper etc.
The issue in discussion here has long been debated by both sides and if men like Wesley and Whitefield can’t reach agreement then I don’t think that we are likely to either, but that shouldn’t stop us from speaking to each other and learning each others point of view in order that we don’t become a stumbling block to each other or others that we meet.
Perhaps I could ask you to read the following article in order that you might better understand my understanding of this doctrine.
God bless,
Andy
Dear Andy,if you read my posts I never said that we can persevere on our own,we have been given the Holy Spirit.Jacob explains well the book of Hebrews,that it was written to christians,and once they have been enlightened and tasted of the Spirit they have now fallen away.You cannot fall away from what you never where.I was in no way trying to set one believer against another,I was merely pointing out Jacob’s teaching versus some others because he is more learned than I am,and can disect scripture better than I can.John is being very judgemental,I did not come to attack anyone,this doctrine,I have seen in my 33 yrs as a christian,destroying people because they think that they can continue in their sin because once they made a commitment.I was first accused of preaching a works salvation,we do not work for our salvation but we work for the Lord after we are saved.If and notice IF we do not bear fruit we will be cut off and thrown into the fire.John dear brother you accused me of using your website as a platform to vent my ideas,it came as a shock to you to learn that jacob and many well meaning christians have another view about this subject.You threathened to ban me from your site,well you do not have to do that, I will not visit this site anymore,if you think you know it all and have nothing else to learn from others.Its pride and you should check yourself.You can keep your site.I have face book to pass on my beliefs to others,at least the worlds website have not yet started to shut us up. On my view I am safe,I am not telling people they cannot rely on God to finish what he started,Jacob gave a good illustration when he said you are given an airoplane model as a gift,because salvation is a gift and it is not earned, but you have to put it together.You have to work it out,you are given talents and the Lord wants to see you produce fruit,not bury them under the ground because he was supposed to do all the work.Well bye and God bless and May God help us all.
Dear Joyce,
Firstly let me hold my hands up here, and admit that the way in which I reacted to your original comment was out of order, and for this I sincerely ask your forgiveness. Not only that, but after reflecting upon the way I reacted, being pointed out by Andy, who is a beloved brother in the Lord, I have no intention of making you any less welcome than you were initially. I realise you may not want to return here, and I realise that I have had a part to play in that, and all I can do is ask for your forgiveness.
You may think we are coming from two different ends of the spectrum here, and I have clashed with you because of a fear of my own misunderstanding being exposed by the Light of God’s Word, but this is genuinely not true. In fact, this is the type of subject I am constantly trawling the Scriptures for answers, because contrary to what you may think, I am not coming from a background of a staunch reformer and calvinist, but a charismatic background that is most definitely sided heavily towards Arminianist views.
The reason I think I react so strongly is because for most of my Christian life, I blindly accepted the “decision for Christ” type theology, where the sinner’s prayer is spoken, and that’s it, you are guaranteed safe for all eternity, regardless of what you do. If this is the OSAS doctrine you despise, and I must point out you brought that label into the equation first, then I despise it with as much vigour as yourself. I know it leads people to hell, because I was pretty much half way there myself without realising!
However from this place of error, the immediate reaction can be to “do something”, and that is what I struggled with first of all, but it was what to do that confused me for a season. Then as we set this place up, and I found myself immersed into the Word of God, and becoming aware of arguments that had continued for pretty much the age of the Church, I became more and more aware of the sovereignty of God in the believers life. And the way in which He saves us from start to finish, by the completed work of Christ Himself.
I know very well the dangers of relying upon a decision I made, but I have come to rely fully upon a decision God made towards me. I don’t know why He made it, I know I’m not worthy of His love and mercy, and I know that even though I want to with all my heart, my love and faithfulness towards Him, is nothing in comparison to His love and faithfulness towards me. And if my eternal salvation has any reliance upon my love, or my faithfulness, then to be brutally honest, it scares the heck out of me!
I agree with you that it is to those who endure to the end who will be glorified with Christ in Heaven. Yet all I have to rely upon that this will in fact be the case with me, is that His Spirit dwells with in me as a guarantee, and it is His work that will endure till the end, not mine.
In reality, if we were to take the emotion away, I genuinely believe we would pretty much be on the same page concerning this subject, albeit if our focus has been set at different points of the whole thing. So once again, forgive my stupidity and immaturity, and feel most welcome to return here and comment on any subject as often as you wish. You have my assurance that, even if we disagree totally, I will do my utmost to respond graciously and lovingly.
Love in Christ,
John.
My dear brother all is forgiven,amongst believers. I would recommend you hear those sermons and pray before you do.For many years I believed saved always saved,and I saw many believers remain in the flesh because they say,”oH I am weak,He has justified my future sins,and we brush off everything under the carpet.we need to learn obedience.even Jesus had to learn obedience, I can do all things through Christ that strengthens me,so now we no longer have an excuse that we are weak.You were given all the amunition,and when we do fall we cannot say its because I am weak,or because God did not stop me its because we chose.We make decitions everyday.we made one big decition to follow Jesus,and He said count the cost before you come after me.The Lord did not have a place to lay his head.I was assked to lose family and to lose houses and to lose country,my own brothers and my own mum hates me because I follow Jesus.Am I earning my salvation by this no, but I am certainly working it out,making nothing more precious to me than my God.Andy dear brother,obeying God and obeying His will,is the same.God cannot go against His will.every time we sin we chose to obey satans lies,we disobey God,He is merciful and is always ready to forgive, but He does warn us that His will will not strive with men for ever.look at Israel,how patient He was,how many miracles He worked for them,they hardened their hearts,just because they were His Sons they tought they were secure.If we do the same after a great salvation,do you think He can be different with us,just because once we started to follow,and then decided to go our own way.God is very long suffering and I do not think I lose my salvation every time I sin or disobey, but if I decide one daay (God forbid) that this is too hard for me.I cannot live with my family hating me because of Jesus,or one gets decieved by these apostates,trying to have the kingdom now, or changing the cross of Jesus to a prosperity doctrine,because I want to please the flesh and live the here and now.Do you think God can let me enter His heaven.I am sure he will do all He can to stop me,but ultimetly if I want to continue in this unbelief,then He will add a delusion,and the end is judgement.If we could not be decieved why would he warn us, what is there to lose.Better still why don’t we all be taken away from this earth as soon as we believe,its because we need to be purified,as gold to see if we can be trusted with greater things.The Lord says let us reason,we should not believe a blind faith.To believe you were called and Chosen ,yes not because we deserve it, but then to say I will do nothing,I will not live the christian life, I am secure now,we have to continue till the end.Jesus had 12 appostles,he gave them all the same chances, he even blew on all of them and passed on His holy spirit and sent them witnessing,they all were happy that they were able to perform miracles.He prayed that he kept all of them except Judas,what are we to say, He created Judas so that he will send him to hell, no, Judas chose to deny the Lord,and more so he could have repented, no sin is too great that God cannot forgive, but He lost faith, he tought God cannot possibly forgive him now, so he went and took his own life.Peter however believed Jesus could still forgive him so he repented.God does not chose only a few to be saved, they chose not to go on,that is why many are called but few are chosen,why does he not keep all those He calls then ? Is God failing to stop them sinning, no its because He does not want robots,he gives you back your free will, He shows you His will and he helps you in obeying His will, but He does not force you.Why are we told in the Lord’s prayer, to pray that we will not be tempted, its because we can fall.So what if we fall, our sins are covered,we have eternal security.If we remain in habitual sin after we are enlightened,we will be like pigs going back to the mire,non believers were never washed from the mire.we are only washed by the blood of the lamb.They have never been cleansed, so they cannot go back, they were and remain in the mire.God bless and take care Love in Jesus Joyce
Thank you Joyce for your comments, and your understanding. And God bless you too sister. John.
Hello Joyce,
I too would just like to thank you for all your comments.
Like John I also think that although we may interpret exactly what the bible means in different ways the outworking of our faith appears to be very much the same.
It is good that we can share here as we never know what God can teach us through each other.
May God bless you,
Andy
I got my response from Pastor DeWaay,
Here was my note to him,
Pastor Bob DeWaay,
I have been enjoying your radio programs on Hebrews. I recently read this article from here… http://faith-defenders.com/2010/03/eternal-security-of-the-elect/ followed by the comments and then here http://faith-defenders.com/2010/03/the-weakest-link/ followed by the comments.
After reading your paper on the “Perseverance of the Saints” and “Can Christians become Apostate” and listening to the radio programs regarding Hebrews 6, I am having trouble getting this together in my mind. You speak of a third stand that you mention in your radio program.
Do I understanding this right? Because the writer of Hebrews makes the statement of the possibility of “falling away” that this can happen? But that this is mostly to people who have been once “enlightened” but then make a conscience choice to “renounce” their faith, this is the “falling away”? It seems then the difference is the example of the ex-charismatic pastor who denounced (from your radio program), who cannot come back, then the issue is really what would be a difference in “backslider” vs “apostate”?
A Christian, who does not “denounce” but might “backslide” still can be secure in their salvation, even though they may have a sin issue in their life?
My conflict is what I learned as a Baptist turned Charismatic turned reformed thinking? I have been taught two sides of the coin and just trying to get it straightened out biblically. I like the idea of a balanced third stance in this matter. Seems you might have that.
Thank you
Answer below,
Heb 6;
My view is that there are two categories of people that the warning fits. There are those like Peter who denied the Lord three times but came back to Him. There are those like Judas who appeared to be part of the church and went totally apostate. True apostates never come back.
Before we see the outcome, it is very hard for us to judge the difference between the backslider and the apostate. The difference happens later. The backslider will come back to the Lord and the warnings against apostasy shall have had their intended effect. The true apostate never comes back, ever. 1 John 2:19 applies to them. That pastor mentioned in the radio spot showed me that he was apostate by the fact he had no sorrow over his sin, was willing to fully renounce Christ, and was happy in his condition.
I hope this helps,
Blessings,
Bob
The appostate of course does not know he is an appostate.That verse ,virtualy impossible,in the Greek and even in my language means that it can but it is highly unlikely.James 5:19 says if any wonders from the truth and you turn him back you would have saved a soul from death.Doctrine is very important,once we start believing another doctrine that is spiritual adultery and very soon you see these people falling into idolatry and all sorts of sins,look at how these apostate preachers are all divorcing and remarrying.You can be appostate in publicly denying Christ,that is open rebellion,and sometimes it can be the case that these people were never truly saved to begin with,but we also see people who still profess to believe,but they are not living the christian life.They are either adulterers,or covoutous,or are living in sin,openly or not.That is why Jesus says,they say I preached in your name,I worked miracles in your name,but Jesus says get away from me I never knew you.Its not enough that we know Him, He has to know us,by abiding in us. I think that is why we have the two types Judas, and Peter,the bible is full of typology.That verse in James 5:20 is very important,because had that man not turned back his soul would have died,and we all know what the second death is,when your soul dies it goes to hell.